Sometimes a brain can come in quite handy. 
21st-Jul-2008 03:11 pm
Susan - Duty
Overall note: It's been brought to my attention that FanHistory is probably making money off the extra hits generated by this drama. I have rerouted all FH links through an anonymizer to avoid contributing to such revenue. If you'd prefer not to visit FanHistory at all, screencaps of the linked pages are also provided. In the interest of protecting the identity of the fan in question, all links to the fanthropology post have been replaced by censored screencaps.



I'm probably inviting wank by making this public, but I don't really care. There aren't any key figures reading my LJ anyway. ;P

So thanks to lol_meme (how's that for a source?) I just found out about this issue that's apparently been going on for at least the past month. Remember that FanHistory wiki I posted about around half a year ago, when I had a moment of ego weakness and wanted a page on there? Well, apparently the owner got her hands on astolat's real name. And added said name, and several details of her offline and professional life, to the FanHistory page about her. And if someone tries to remove astolat's real-life details, saying "she doesn't want these things linked, please stop," the owner reverses the edits and restores the revealing page. And when challenged, said owner made a giant post to fanthropology proclaiming your real-life details fair game if you've ever posted on an archive, made an online journal, or joined a message board.

Revision history of astolat's page: [link] [image]
Talk page for astolat's listing: [image]
FH owner's rules for maintaining privacy: [page 1] [page 2] (HUGE IMAGE WARNING. Showing all comments as of 3 PM.)

This both pisses me off and freaks me the hell out.

Now, I don't know how partly_bouncy got ahold of astolat's real name. It's entirely possible it was posted in an obvious place and should have been better protected, and was added to FanHistory without anyone knowing that was Not Okay. Accidental outings happen. But then people tried to remove the info and... the site owner restored it. Forced it back on there like it was some precious data people have a right to know. That's what really burns my cookies.

With this act, FanHistory is doing something not even lol_meme would do to Cassie Clare. Something not even charlottelennox would do to MsScribe. Something not even 4chan would do to all but its most hated enemies, from what I've heard. Putting someone's real identity out there whether they want it to be or not, a piece of information that is absolutely irrelevant to any kind of serious fandom history record. This pushes them firmly out of "media" territory and into "paparazzi."

4chan, people. This makes FanHistory lower than 4chan.

Obviously, there's no law that says unwanted information must be removed. Once you put something out there on the internet, it's technically fair game. But fandom has always had a rather widely-accepted understanding about things. Certain things are Not Okay. If someone posts your fanworks on their archive without your permission and refuses to remove them when you ask, that is Not Okay. What I realize now is, with FanHistory, we now have an entity that flies in the face of all those mores. If it's ever been revealed anywhere, FanHistory feels it has a right to print it, whether or not you object, and the precious line between fandom life and real life will not be respected. Even if it was posted under a friends lock. Even if it was said to a buddy in chat. If it's out there, they're taking it. All for the sake of, I assume, some pompous desire to bring The Truth to the world, whether or not it's actually useful or relevant to anything.

I wonder if this has anything to do with astolat being (as I recall) the inspiration behind OTW, which partly_bouncy has been a vocal enemy of since the beginning.

On a personal note, I'm soon going to become a bit of a fandom historian myself, but I have already agreed to remove some recovered stories whose authors have contacted me requesting they not be on there. Same goes for the upcoming directory; I won't link to you if you don't want me to. On the flip side of the coin, I've always made a reasonable effort to keep my real name separate from my fandom persona, but with a little Google research I think it's possible to put them together. I never worried about it much, because who's gonna bother to out a minor name like me? But now it seems there is at least one person out there who would not only put time and effort into hunting down my real-life identity, but would force that identity into the public eye whether I wanted it there or not. And all for no other reason than adding one more detail to her precious fandom encyclopedia. My life, for a few extra bytes of data. I wouldn't have much to worry about if I were outed, since I'm not a public figure and I don't produce controversial material, but it's still a very unsettling thought.

I am somewhat ashamed to have ever supported FanHistory or its owner.

ETA: Since I'm sure someone will eventually bring this up. On further investigation it seems partly_bouncy thinks astolat's real name should be listed since she's part of OTW and they are using real names there. (Since the beginning, though, OTW has had a policy of keeping their OTW faces - their real ones, for legal reasons - separate from their fandom faces, so it's not a connection that was intended to be made.) Regardless, if someone wants their real-life identifying information removed from a fandom site, it should be removed, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Setting that entire issue aside, partly_bouncy still opened up a serious can of worms with her fanthropology post and its mirroring policy over on FanHistory, whether she intended to or not. Argue astolat's case all you want, but the owner of FanHistory has declared your personal information fair game if you have ever interacted in fandom, on any level anywhere, and for me that falls firmly in the category of Not Okay.

ETA 2: Some notes for those of you new to this whole FanHistory thing...

  • FanHistory has a bot that will eventually add a page for you if you have a profile on Fanfiction.net, if you don't have one already. Yes, that page will only contain very basic information, but more importantly, it opens the door for more details to be added. It creates a "stub" article for the purpose of encouraging people to add more information about you, and increases the chances that some well-meaning someone will stumble upon it and go "Oh, I know this person, but there's hardly anything here! I'll add some more!" without stopping to consider if you want your details on there (or possibly even believing that the presence of the page indicates your consent).


  • FanHistory does have a rule against adding personal information to pages. However, it contains the following exception: If a member of fandom puts that information out there about themselves with the intention of that information being utilized by fandom. (source [image]) As applied to astolat, this means FanHistory believes it's OK to include her real name since she revealed it as part of the OTW staff (as mentioned in my earlier ETA). However, it's always been the policy of OTW to keep its board's real identities separate from its fandom identities. I still believe their desire for such separation should be respected.


  • FanHistory does include a procedure for requesting the article about you be deleted. (source [image]) However, the site does not appear to maintain a blacklist of any kind. You may still be mentioned on other pages, and people are still free to create new articles about you. The responsibility is left on you to monitor FanHistory and submit a deletion request all over again if new articles appear. If you are a BNF (Big Name Fan), FanHistory will refuse to delete your page. (source [image])


  • There is also an option to have your article locked so only you can edit it. With the possibility that someone might recreate your article if you have it deleted, the best course of action may be to request restricted control, strip your article down to its basest components, and have it locked so nobody can add any further details about you to your page. Of course, if you are a BNF, this option may be denied to you as well. (source [image])

These rules do provide some restrictions and recourse, but the exceptions made for BNFs are equally alarming. What we have here is a place where BNFs are officially put on the same level as real-life celebrities, where just because they are in the public eye or significant to the community in some way, their entire lives are considered public property. Yes, that is the way the outside world works, but I would ask if this is the kind of attitude we want in fandom.

I will be up-front and say that yes, I do read and sometimes participate in the wank communities on JournalFen. I enjoy a good tale of drama as much as the next spectator. Yes, that puts me in the category of those who believe if you post something on the internet, you should expect the world to read it. But the line between online lives and offline lives has always been an overall respected barrier in fandom. Even in the midst of the ugliest drama, bringing up personal details is always considered taboo by the majority. Your real life is your permanent private property, and if anyone tries to violate that in public, there are usually 50 people ready to jump on that person and lock the information down. I am still firmly of the opinion that if astolat wants her real name and details removed from her FanHistory article, even if she is using her real name in her work with OTW, it should be removed from her article. She may be a BNF, but her personal life is still her property, to reveal or conceal as she sees fit. Nobody else has the right to make that decision for her.

If nothing else, I definitely support spreading the word about this, so people will at least be aware of the controversy and can pursue whatever options they desire. Love it or hate it, people should know what's going on so they can make their own decisions about presenting or protecting their information.

Yes, you may link to this post if it helps.

ETA 3: There's a new "advised to add" (whatever that indicates) paragraph on partly_bouncy's fanthropology post. (link) It seems FanHistory may be willing to work with astolat on this issue after all... but that still doesn't make it okay that they posted her information in the first place. I love how partly_bouncy's addition uses real names and then links them directly to the astolat page. Top form, there.

ETA 4: Hopefully this will be the last edit.

astolat has made a post on the issue, containing some helpful tips on how to handle it if you ever end up in a similar situation. [link]

Some other posts on the topic (feel free to offer yours in the comments and I'll most likely add it):

http://ithiliana.livejournal.com/922604.html

Final ETA: I've made a follow-up post rather than continue adding to this one. [link]
irate
Comments 
21st-Jul-2008 09:33 pm (UTC)
If the person requested the information be taken down it should be taken down and done with. I don't see why these people keep putting it back.

I created a couple of pages two weeks ago for the Dramione section of the site but after reading this I'm kind of creeped out. I have a page there too and I don't think I'd want my personal info being mixed in with my fandom info.
21st-Jul-2008 09:50 pm (UTC)
If it's anywhere, it might be. Unless this is a personal vendetta, it seems they're restoring the unwanted info just because it's true. If it's true, it stays, wanted or not.

It seems to be one of those situations where once something's on there, it's on there, good luck getting it off. We just have to hope nobody adds details we don't want shown :\

For extra fun, they have a bot now that automatically adds pages for anyone with a Fanfiction.net profile, so the number of names in their catalog is increasing by leaps and bounds.
(Deleted comment)
21st-Jul-2008 10:00 pm (UTC)
It's a good thing that I don't care who knows who i am. I use the same username everywhere for fandom, personal, and business. I just try to make sure I don't post anything I'd be ashamed of.
22nd-Jul-2008 01:34 am (UTC)
*nods* I don't really have anything to be ashamed of, either. There are plenty of people out there, though, who might be in trouble if their bosses found out they were writing slash porn about underage boys or whatever.
21st-Jul-2008 10:03 pm (UTC)
This is the sort of asshattery that makes me yearn for an RL Narn Bat Squad. There's little enough privacy on the intertubes without creeps like that aggressively working to out people.
22nd-Jul-2008 11:12 am (UTC)
No kidding. What gets me is, what's the purpose of FanHistory? Why does it exist? If it was (supposedly) created for the benefit of fandom, it's certainly not behaving that way.
21st-Jul-2008 10:30 pm (UTC)
That's just - bullshit, for lack of any better word. I have a ff.net profile - this is scary.
22nd-Jul-2008 11:13 am (UTC)
Who doesn't have an account on FFnet? By creating that bot, FanHistory has an easy way to add almost everyone.
21st-Jul-2008 11:08 pm (UTC)
This is very scary. Is there any way to get your information removed?
22nd-Jul-2008 01:37 am (UTC)
Nope. Once it's on there, it's on there, apparently. If you try to remove something, the owner will just put it back.

According to her fanthropology post, which has been copied over to FanHistory as their "how to stay off this site" page, it's like abstinence being the only 100% reliable birth control - you have to never put yourself out there, anywhere. No fics in public archives, no journals, no forum profiles, no nothing. If you're out there, they'll index you.

Pretty rotten, IMO.
21st-Jul-2008 11:20 pm (UTC)
Im just wondering where Parly_Bouncy's information is.

Its a give and take. No need to be hypocritical.
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
22nd-Jul-2008 12:02 am (UTC)
*peeks*

Well...I'm glad to say I didn't see my name up there. That's not the kind of publicity that I'd want. :/
22nd-Jul-2008 01:42 am (UTC)
Not yet, anyway. If you're on Fanfiction.net the bot will eventually get you.
(Deleted comment)
22nd-Jul-2008 01:43 am (UTC)
I pay extra to have my personal information hidden on whois.
(Deleted comment)
22nd-Jul-2008 03:06 am (UTC)
This all does strike me as somewhat illegal. There are invasion of privacy laws, etc. and usually companies/services make you agree that you're giving them the right to your personal information. This girl's never gotten permission to USE this information (which is different than just accessing it), and she's clearly seen that the person doesn't want this info used. To boot, there's provable malicious intent involved.

I'd definitely throw the book at her if I were this poor girl.
22nd-Jul-2008 02:29 pm (UTC)
People who are on the board of directors of publicly active non-profit organizations, might be claimed to be "celebrities." Or at least "public figures"--people of newsworthy interest. Newsworthy people have very few official, legal rights to privacy.

Eventually, the info-explosion online will go to court for this. In the meantime, a lot of people's private lives are going to be made very uncomfortable for the hobbies and interests that their co-workers would be happy to mock.

(And as it was said in the replies to the fanthropology post: there's a difference between "warn people to wear seatbelts, because some careless or malicious jerks will ram your car," and ramming into cars yourself to prove it. It all smacks of "well, then she shouldn't have worn that miniskirt/gone to that party/had a drink/been alone in a room with his brother!")
(no subject) - Anonymous - Expand
22nd-Jul-2008 03:07 am (UTC)
I was just informed by someone on my flist about this. Thankfully none of my personal information is up there, but I feel terrible for astolat.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention!
22nd-Jul-2008 03:30 am (UTC)
(I found you through moirariordan's post and of course I've seen you around LWD the boards)

I had no idea that you were connected to restoring the ASMR library, and I just wanted to thank you for your work in doing that. While I haven't posted on that forum in over four years, that website meant a lot to me in my youth.

prettykitty, forum member #52

Also, this FH shite is BS
22nd-Jul-2008 11:14 am (UTC)
Thank you. I'm hoping to have the new moonromance.net open within a week or so. <3
22nd-Jul-2008 03:46 am (UTC)
this entry was linked to on one of my friend's pages. I cmpletely agree on how unnecessary the strive for "truth" is. What is interesting is on the rules page of fan history this is stated:
Do not include addresses, phone numbers, work information, and other information that the individual the page is about would consider personal. See Help:People for more details regarding this rule.

That means this person (the owner?) of fan history is violating one of their very own rules. Way to be hypocritcal.
22nd-Jul-2008 11:20 am (UTC)
That is very interesting. It looks like those rules contain lots of loopholes to allow what partly_bouncy's doing, though.

Thanks for the tip. Adding another ETA.
22nd-Jul-2008 04:30 am (UTC)
*spreads the word.* This is something everyone needs to be made aware of, regardless of how little it may or may not affect them.
22nd-Jul-2008 11:15 am (UTC)
*agrees*

Feel free to link to this entry if it helps.
22nd-Jul-2008 02:08 pm (UTC)
I didn't see if anyone mentioned this already, sorry if it's been done before but...how does FF.net feel about their site being info-mined by FanHistory, especially since so many of their writers are minors?

And, I just looked myself up over there -- it's...creepy as hell, to find a page that I didn't make showing my entire FF.net posting history... O_O
22nd-Jul-2008 04:34 pm (UTC)
Hi, I got linked here by a friend. I have to say, looking at this from someone who knows very little about OTW and FH (other than that I realized I had an FH page a short time ago and tweaked it just a bit) and any conflict between them, this really looks like a personal vendetta. The way "Laura" keeps using astolat's full real name repeatedly totally comes across like she's got an axe to grind, especially with the fanthropology post. I thought at first FH was kind of neat, but now I have serious concerns about it if the people behind it are going to use it to "out" or "punish" members of fandom they don't like. Most people I know keep their fandom id and real life id separate, including me. I know it won't take much work to dig up my real name, but I don't expect to see it put up on a fandom wiki. FH should honor astolat's privacy, even if she is a member of OTW.
22nd-Jul-2008 05:29 pm (UTC)
this really looks like a personal vendetta.

See my comment above.
22nd-Jul-2008 04:56 pm (UTC)
I love how people's ISPs are getting banned when they try to delete information from their profile on that site.

It just happened to one of my best friends and she's livid.

She's not even a BNF.
22nd-Jul-2008 05:42 pm (UTC)
There's a new "advised to add" (whatever that indicates) paragraph on [info]partly_bouncy's [info]fanthropology post. (link) It seems FanHistory may be willing to work with [info]astolat on this issue after all...

I wouldn't put much stock in this. Her "working with" has in the past proved less than honest. Astolat is not the only fan she has outed in this way. Other fans have found that she has "worked with" them to remove the information and then within weeks the information is magically back in their entry. Also, the wiki mods have flat out refused to edit the history of a page to remove the links there, making editing the article itself almost a moot point.
22nd-Jul-2008 06:14 pm (UTC)
I'm sad to hear there's already a history of that kind of thing. I was already pretty put off by the "They must come to ME (to undo what I did)" attitude displayed in that post.
22nd-Jul-2008 05:47 pm (UTC)
I love how partly_bouncy's addition uses real names and then links them directly to the [fannish] page. Top form, there.

Yeah, I wouldn't take anything she says about working with someone to protect their privacy seriously. Even if she thinks she has some great scholarly reason to link the identities in her crappy wiki, she has no reason other than sheer spite to do so on LJ.
22nd-Jul-2008 06:31 pm (UTC)
It seems FanHistory may be willing to work with astolat on this issue after all... but that still doesn't make it okay that they posted her information in the first place. I love how partly_bouncy's addition uses real names and then links them directly to the astolat page. Top form, there.

If they were willing to work with her, they would have removed her information in the first place. Spiteful bitch.
22nd-Jul-2008 06:31 pm (UTC)
Apparently, she's also pulled from the adultfanfiction archive, because I've never posted to fanfiction.net and I have a page.
22nd-Jul-2008 06:52 pm (UTC)
I find that even scarier, honestly. With ff.net's policies, many people choose to put their more explicit stories on adultfanfiction, and having that information linked up with a real name could be potentially devastating to a lot of people.
22nd-Jul-2008 06:50 pm (UTC)
FanHistory has a bot that will eventually add a page for you if you have a profile on Fanfiction.net, if you don't have one already.

Even if you don't want one at all? That seems rather unfair if you ask me...
22nd-Jul-2008 07:11 pm (UTC) - In case there was any doubt
partly_bouncy has been looking for ways to make money off of fandom for years. She has ads on her wiki, and, well, here's another example or two of her bullshit:

http://twitter.com/purplepopple/statuses/862257961

http://twitter.com/purplepopple/statuses/862259638
22nd-Jul-2008 07:14 pm (UTC) - Re: In case there was any doubt
You've got impeccable timing; I just got tipped that the whole thing may be trolling for ad-revenue hits.
22nd-Jul-2008 07:50 pm (UTC)
1. I am really glad I never opened a ff.net account. ^^;

2. I am really pissed off that she shares my name. Now everyone is going to associate that name with a petty, vindictive bitch and not an eccentric but loveable Limey. >( Part-joking aside, this is unbelievable and makes me wish there were internet police. :(
22nd-Jul-2008 07:52 pm (UTC)
I will always associate it with an eccentric-but-loveable Limey, if that helps? :P
22nd-Jul-2008 08:03 pm (UTC)
And this isn't even the first time this has happened. I do OTW stuff under my RL name and as a result of the bad experiences with PB's site have basically stopped posting in my fan LJ (this username). And I pretty much have nothing to lose if my names are connected, and in some ways I'm pretty sure I don't care. It's just that I won't get a say and that pisses me off.

It also pisses me off that PB has outed people and only taken info down after making such a huge deal about it that everybody ends up knowing.

Oh, and a third thing: PB has a transparent .gif on her site to track hits to her wiki, so I never visit it. Heads up; if you go, block the images from her URL first.
22nd-Jul-2008 08:29 pm (UTC)
If this has happened before, I wonder "Where's the fandom outrage?" Why hasn't the community as whole been taking issue with these practices? Maybe this time it won't fade away quietly.
22nd-Jul-2008 08:09 pm (UTC)
I love it, they locked the page from being edited....with her information still on there.

If there is a dispute, you have to take it down first. Jeez
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